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These are all of the old posts from the first two years of the forum. They are locked.
Updated: 2005-03-28 by HoloM (the god)
Colin Kaminski

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Post by Colin Kaminski »

I would like to see new images of Tripple Take as they get them.I don't really see it as advertising as much as sharing progress.
Bruce

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Post by Bruce »

How about 3 legged Newport tables with quantum serrated edges? LOL

Bruce
JP

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Post by JP »

First, I must make it clear that my views don't necessarily match Dinesh's. Specifically, anything I say here does not mean Dinesh has agreed or changed his mind on any of his postings. But here is how I see it:
John, (or anyone else for that matter) has not specifically done anything wrong, per se, but has nonetheless become the unenviable poster child of our own inner conflict, and I apologize for that. And so I will try to explain why it happened:
We, by some deep instinct, are born teachers. We love to teach, and we love to see our progeny grow. However, we have also chosen to make this our livelihood, and we're not being particularly successful at it. Not due to lack of ideas or expertise, but because we give away too much. Not just in advice, but in time, energy, even equipment, supplies, and free samples. I think the more we give, the more people just assume it's easy for us, but it's not. It's been said that giving brings back ten-fold, but today philanthropy has no value (ten times zero is zero).
I remember when John first came on the forum, we were very proud of his rapid progress and got very caught up in the excitement. I envy his energy. But slowly the attention was turning, to the point where John was being treated as an authority in venues from which we were rejected and not taken seriously. But the last straw was in his posting that he had clients asking for his work. And not as an artist - artists should always be free to sell the work of their own self-expression. But John has a commercial client. Perhaps in his zeal, he was exaggerating the possibility of this, but you must see how that would turn us to resentment, even to suggest such a thing.
Yes, the insecurity is mine. In truth, I know in my mind (all too well) that the world does work that way. If John did go off and be successful in a commercial venture, he should be commended for it, and the better for holography in general. But in my heart I'm quite torn between idealistic principles and harsh realities. I feel like the mother Rat trying to decide whether to eat her own babies or die of starvation herself.
I know that there are other professional holographers who are "lurkers" on this forum. Most do not post because they know they can't afford to give away their professional advantage. Some have given me advice on this subject, and I wouldn't mind if some others gave me a call sometime.
Bruce

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Post by Bruce »

Please allow me to be frank and voice a thought even while emotions run high, It seems to me that allowing and even helping to promote Joy and Dinesh in their enterprise will benefit those of us who are amateurs and in need of help. I, for one, benefit greatly from their knowledge, which is freely given.
This forum can possibly be used for that purpose in some ,as yet, unkown way. I do not pay for this forum so I can't make such a decision but when any fellow holographer leaves the sport then we all lose, yes?
Secondly, where possible, when giving information to a person requesting it, we should attribute that information to its source (which is standard practice for scientific journals).

Bruce
Colin Kaminski

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Post by Colin Kaminski »

"If John did go off and be successful in a commercial venture, he should be commended for it, and the better for holography in general. But in my heart I'm quite torn between idealistic principles and harsh realities."

Joy, I have always felt, and perhaps mistakenly, that the more people seeing holograms, the more business there will be for all hologrphers. In developed markets, I see compitition as being very tight and any new players take away market share from the existing players. In holography, especially art holography, I don't believe it to be that way. Most people I show a hologram to remark that it is the first hologram they have ever seen. (Except for their credit card.) If they have seen a Tripple Take hologram I have much less education to go through before they can really look at my image and evaluate it on it's merrits.

I see us as a very large team teaching the world about holography. I hope I am correct in the belief that the market for art holography is very small compared to what it will be in 20 years.

In the 60's guitar making was very seceret. As a result most guitars being made were made by the big players. In the 80s we exposed all of the "secrets" and many craftsman started publishing every tip and trick they could think of. As a result, this is the hay day of handcrafted guitars in the US. The workmanship right now is better than anytime in history and a market that only supported 100s of hand builders in the 60s now supports 1000s.

Just my thoughts ...
dave battin

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Post by dave battin »

This forum is a never ending influx of information and it is important to continue these contributions, no matter if you are a professional or a hobbiest. Holography really has not changed for the past twenty years. Yes, we now can use diodes, and we have new polymers, but really not much has changed. What has changed is the access to information........holographers no longer have to sit in the dark wondering about an idea or problem. Thanks to sites like this, all you have to do is post and wait for fellow holographers to zoom in and help out! That is where this forum is ahead of all the rest. Thank you colin and all the other contributors.
Dinesh

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Post by Dinesh »

John, I accept your apology and apologise myself.
Perhaps I should clarify the position. Perhaps in that way I can clear up misunderstandings, or at least make them understandable.
You may remember when you came here last year. You were having problems wiith streaking, greenies, coating methods etc. We went through the procedure for making, shooting and sealing DCG holograms. You stated at the time that you did not realise that the streaking was being caused by holding back on the hair dryer and when you saw me heating it up close, you realised an improvement in technique. We also showed you the importance of having a smooth gelatin by constant stirring. We later talked off forum about the importance of constant stirring, the importance of purity and dark reaction. I believe I sent you an email stating the relative importance of each factor and how much care you need to excercise in each step of the process. I've been doing DCG since 1986 so most of this is second nature.I can realise however how important this information is to a DCG beginner. I thought I was helping an amateur, ie non-professional, with a love of holography. I've never had any hesitation doing this and I'm always available to local holographers if they should fel I can be of any assistance.
Suddenly I notice posts about elaborate set-ups, detailed methods on DCG coating, DCG exposure and sealing. I start to think, "Good, he seems to have learnt this stuff." Then I notice even more elaborate setups and questions on hoods, flow chambers, optics. At this point I'm thinking, "He's going professional", and even "He's setting up as THE source of DCG information" There were a couple of errors in some of your postings on DCG and some places where I could have made constructive suggestions, but I generally tend not to. Maybe there was a personal twinge; you may remember at PCG I said there didn't seem to be a lot I could say aboit DCG since you seemed to know it all.
Then you did the bottle, which was nice. Then you asked about the colors, and asked, and asked, and asked. I thought this was overdoing it, since this seemed to be a conversation betwen you and Kaveh on dispersion. Anyone dropping in on the forum would get the impression that these type of holograms were all there was to holography and you were the expert on the subject. At this point I thought to myself, "Are we going backwards to the days of chess pieces and skulls? We seem to be so obsessed with a glass bottle simply because of dispersion." In fct I was using those effects back in 87 or so. At the time I was working in POC (Physical Optics Corp) and a client asked for some kind of enhancement in the backround. I got a mirror, spray painted glue onto it and blew metal dust over the mirror surface. The client (I can't remember who it was) was apparently terribly impressed and asked for the technique I used. When I told him my trick of a mirror and metal dust, he asked where I got it from. I told him I dreamt it up myself and he suggested I call it a Dinesh-ogram. By the way, if you try this, I hope you mention you read it here first! Anyway, it seemed we were resurrecting these old images and these old techniques and so I posted about holography going backwards with this obsession with banality. Even that one-step process is old. It's been tried, not by me. I'm not a fan of rainbows.
I think when Kaveh posted on this forum that there was a new article in Holographer was when annoyance set in. The fact that my Silver Article was not accepted was irrelevant, I only wrote it because someone (Arturo?) asked for an article on the mechanism of Silver processing, but by pointing to your article in addition to the constant flow of postings, it gave an impression of someone who had dreamed up all those ideas by himself. Anyone going there from the link over here would get the impression that this was top of the line stuff. Yet I read that to stabilise a table you can use inner tubes! To get Sulphuric Acid, use car batteries, to decrease pH use NaCO3. What's wrong with using the acid from the car batteries? If this is what "The Homepage for Holographers" tells the world, this, along with the constant postings of the bottle and discussion on why these colors exist seem to make anyone who wants a hologram to automatically come to you to get them. I saw it as a marketing or advertising ploy. Then today you mention that you're getting orders so all that information went to creating a commercial rival!
I feel that if anyone here wants to become commercial, they should state it. Advice freely given to amateurs may not be given to pros (at least not without it being "consultancy") but I feel wronged that under the guise of "let's improve holography for everyone. Tell me how to do so-and-so" I basically conducted a DCG class for free. Now I'm seen as a dispenser of equations, anathema for anyone trying to professionally sell imagery, while you John are seen as an authority on holography. If I'm wrong I apologise.
I think that the PCG site should host images that we want to share. I also think that educational material should be placed there so we who belong to the PCG should be able to post there and so cause PCG to grow as a grass roots holography movement for education while the forum remains for generation of holographic ideas and discussions without any implications.

"I felt a little guilty after I posted about the film holder you built."
Don't worry about it. But if I catch you selling them, I expect a commission on each sale. A pint ought to do it.

"We lost holodisk over this kind of conflicted ego. I think all will agree, while not everyone liked his posts we all read each one with great interest. I for one miss the controversy he brought to the forum."
Me too.
Danny bruza

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Post by Danny bruza »

There was a formula that was the formal that he got the noble peace prize.
Was Governing Dynamics, where the real working principle that grew the group or company was this theist, was when each would make decisions that helped the group and in turn help him self too...for many years he struggled with pride, and ego and self adsorption. The principles found in paper he wrote was the very thing that helped him fine his sanity toward the end of his life.

Longing for the principles found governing dynamics, I believe this is really what caused us to form PCG, knowing that we really need each other. And can make more of an impact together than apart. The only way it works is when none abuse or takes advantage of any in the group…but just like the chouse of love (giving not expecting anything in return) there is a risk. But the benefits out way the risk when it really works

your servent and friend Danny

JohnFP

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Post by JohnFP »

Well, what can I say?

First I will start off by stating the 20 holograms I will make are not definitive yet but a person I work with likes the effect and wants them to give away to his club. The other holograms are for my brother in-law that is starting up a company and is now giving away pens. He wants something that has a lasting impression. Something like a magnet on the fridge where the person will be apt to keep the company name around. Actually, much like the pen. The Bottle was done for my Uncle and he has not even seen it yet. None of those were as a result of posting on this board. So if these holograms represent a move to professionalism then that is a surprise to me. To me, if I do sell a couple it is just to recoup some of the thousands I have put into holography. Since I have been into DCG it seems every week or two there goes another hundred.

Second, let me state some differences in our fabrication and processing. My ratios of H2O-Gelating-AmDi are completely different then yours. In mixing, I have always known that the mixture needs to be mixed constantly, which I was trying to do by hand. My mixing temperature is different they yours, by as much as 30 – 40 degrees F. I do not use the wire rod method as you and Joy demonstrated, although I appreciate your showing me the technique. For me the veil/spin method works great. You can see that is how I am doing it by the unsteady hand pour on the one edge of my emulsion. I heat each of my alcohols and I am not sure what you temperatures are, although you have stated that yours are at room temperature. My ambient room temperature is too low so I have to heat. I have seen how you dry your holograms but that is not new, I was told how to dry by a different professional but struggled in my results thus I was trying many techniques. I do not believe the greenies are caused by the drying method. The greenies are a combination of many, many variables. In fact if you read my posts on that thread you will find that I had thought that I ruined my hologram because of the streaking, not greenies but I continued to dry and found that it takes more then I thought. From what I remember you did not dry that way. I had to dry my 4 x 5’s for 5 minutes at close proximity and on high. I believe this to be because my concentration is different and my bath temperatures are different. Remember, I have always stated I am shooting for broadband. I believe a black and white image is more accepted because people are still used to seeing black and white TV shows once in a while and black and white photographs. It is just my opinion. I decided to use a coating bench because I coat my plates in a very old, unfinished, dungy cellar that would be impossible to clean. If you remember I was going to create an entire plastic bubble but had to tear it down mid steam as an electrician came over to wire out oven and needed access to the area it covered. It is not simply an air flow bench but my research and some encouragement by someone else on this board opened my eyes as to the design, which is mine, and it helps. Is it a true “Laminar”? I am sure it is not but at least my plates are not setting in a very dusty environment when they are drying. Elaborate set up? I am doing a single beam, I have always done single beams. I tried the mirror in the back, not by someone’s suggestion but because the bottle was setting on a white card that has my uncle’s logo on it that I printed upside down and backward so that it could be read in the mirror. I could not read the logo. The dispersion effect was the result of an experiment that did not work but I like the effects. I never read or hear of using a mirror for that effect. So I am not sure what technique you showed me that I am using. The fact of the matter is, and I believe this with my heart, is I would have to follow every one of your fabrication and processing techniques almost to the letter to get a DCG hologram. So to be frank, my formulas and techniques where given to me years ago by a different professional holographer that I do not want to mention here without his ok. The funny thing is I have been very, very careful not to post an exact suggestion or technique by him or you. I have always struggled and worked up to that suggestion. And I still found that the suggestion never worked exactly but had to be modified. It was never like someone told me something, I tried it and magically my holograms came out nice. That is also a reason I will never try to make clocks, picture frames, coasters, jewelry or large pieces of glass art. If I find a niche, it will have to be an original one. Isn’t that what we were striving for here on the board? Help one another with holography and let the individual find a different niche that may broaden the acceptance of holography.

Again, there is no way in heck I am going to give up my job to become a professional holographer. I support a family of 5 and have a mortgage. And I do not believe I will ever sell any work other then an occasional piece or run here or there to help supplement my costs. I do not think you will have to worry about competition from me. If I win the Lottery for a couple of million and can afford to take off of work for a couple of years and try it, then so be it but I guess I have to play to win, so that will not happen. I have given you many ideas and suggestion that I openly stated you could use without needed to be compensated. I made a suggestion about your site which you used as it was reinforced by someone else. I offer any of my ideas freely. I even told you alone about the Holocamera. I have shared everything I do or think with you freely.

As for the Silver paper you composed, I did not know that and do not know why. As far as my paper, I never claimed those ideas were unique or mine. I simply tried to sit back and think of the things I am using and have used that are house hold items that can be used for holography for the person that wants to get into holography and does not have a lot of money. Heck it can even be used by the professional that may need to save some money here or there. I never and the paper never claimed they were my ideas, simply a list I could think of. If you or anyone else thinks it portrays the idea that they are my suggestions then I will have Kaveh remove the paper, it is no big deal to me. Or on another note I will refine it so that it contains just the ideas that are mine, like the heating pads and patent those ideas such that anyone who wants to use them has to pay me. Sort of defeats the purpose of keeping cost down but a buck is a buck right.

Now, to the matter of what we have always talked about and it comes up time and time again. “Holography is still where it was 20 years ago”. WHY, dang it? Because Holographers of 20 years ago did not want to share their ideas thus it never grew, the same things just got reinvented and reinvented and reinvented. Sometimes different houses went out of business for the same reason. I disbelieve with this philosophy as I look at the big picture of holography. I have stated this many times. Let us get more persons making holography to help the medium to grow and there will be enough customers for everyone. Why are we teaching the newbie and the younger children to make holograms when there is no future in it, just to teach them, to get them excited and go to college to learn light, physics and holography only to get out of college and find there is no work? I thought we were trying to build holography and successful holographic shops. My bad I guess.

Heck, how many holograms do you sell in Maryland? I bought 3 of your clocks to give away as gifts, one of which to my mom who lived in Ocean City Maryland and works at a flower/gift shop, it was the lighthouse. There is a lighthouse there and I though word might spread and a store owner may want a dozen or so. I have tried to help you and promote you the best I could.

On the rainbow, which you keep calling one-step, you still do not see the difference in what I presented as opposed to what is published in Graham’s book, which by the way I saw after I posted my idea. My idea, which I shared openly, was not a one-step but a single beam. There is a huge difference. I was just trying to be creative and share that creativity with all.

Well, enough on this subject, if I have crossed the line in any way let me know and I will publicly apologize and give you a commission on any technique that was uniquely yours and not public knowledge if I make a dollar on that technique. Now you see why I am confused on whether I should continue to share or fall into the black hole of silence and fear holography creates because of its difficult nature.

Sincerely,
John Pecora

danny bruza

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Post by danny bruza »

i think this is a good thing to ask your self john...this alway clears my thinking and my pride....pride always come before a fall...i woulder what Jesus would do? I belive in you John that you will do what right, be a man of integrety
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